#53: Where the Gospel Meets Nationalism

#53: Where the Gospel Meets Nationalism

Note: The Love Thy Neighborhood podcast is made for the ear, and not the eye. We would encourage you to listen to the audio for the full emotional emphasis of this episode. The following transcription may contain errors. Please refer to the audio before quoting any content from this episode. 

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AUDIO CLIP: We’re still taking metal, sharpened objects, missiles… 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so January 6, 2021 – does that date ring a bell? 

RACHEL SZABO: Yes, it does. That is the date of what’s become known as the insurrection on the Capitol. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Right. Okay. So there were claims that the presidential election had been illegal, and while Congress was in session to confirm the results, a group of protesters actually made their way inside the building. So some people have called this a coup, some people have called it a siege, but the result was more than 130 people being injured. Most of those people were police. 

RACHEL SZABO: Holy smokes. I, I didn’t know that. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, so like this was a big deal for a lot of people. And it was also really confusing for us as a nation because during the protest you saw images of American flags next to the Christian flag and you saw signs of crosses next to pro-Trump signs, Christian symbols intertwined with political symbols. 

RACHEL SZABO: Oh yeah. So I remember hearing about there being folks that were publicly praying during that protest, like thanking Jesus while they were there. 

AUDIO CLIP: Jesus Christ, we invoke your name. Amen. Amen! 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, and a lot of this has caused a sort of turning point in the media. You know, since January 6, there’s this phrase that’s now, like, showing up in headlines all over news and print, and the term is –

NEWS CLIPS: Christian nationalism… Anyone talk to you about Christian nationalism? And you may never have heard of that phrase… 

JESSE EUBANKS: “Christian nationalism.” You know, you do a Google search and you’re gonna find dozens of articles from just this past year. 

RACHEL SZABO: Uh, okay, hold on. Okay, yep. Here’s an article from The Washington Post – “How the Capitol Attacks Helped Spread Christian Nationalism.” And, uh, here’s another one from USA Today – “Christian Nationalism Is A Threat and Not Just From Capitol Attackers Invoking Jesus.” And, uh, here we go. Time Magazine – “The Growing Threat of Christian Nationalism in the U.S.” 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, it’s a term that’s all over the place right now, and those articles illustrate the questions that we’re asking, questions about looming threats and violence and religious zealotry. But I think that for those of us that follow Jesus, we have another looming question that we’re asking, and that’s – what does our faith have to do with our nation? As Christians who live in the United States of America, are we called to live for both God and country?

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JESSE EUBANKS: You’re listening to the Love Thy Neighborhood podcast. I’m Jesse Eubanks. 

RACHEL SZABO: And I’m Rachel Szabo. Every episode we hear stories of Christians trying to follow Jesus in our modern times. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Today’s episode is where the gospel meets nationalism. 

RACHEL SZABO: And when we say nationalism, what we’re talking about today specifically is Christian nationalism here in the United States.

JESSE EUBANKS: We’re gonna hear from people on both sides as we look at what is Christian nationalism, who’s a part of it, and what is God’s vision for a country. Welcome to our corner of the urban universe.

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JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so back in March of last year, evangelical speaker Beth Moore announced that she was leaving the Southern Baptist Convention. 

RACHEL SZABO: Oh, yeah, I remember, and that was a big deal because, you know, Beth Moore has identified as a Southern Baptist for more than 30 years. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, it was like a huge deal. And do you know what was the cause of her leaving the convention?

RACHEL SZABO: Uh, sexism I think played a big part in that, you know, not being treated fairly as a woman. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah. 

RACHEL SZABO: And then also I think racism and her perceived complacency with the conventions, you know, actions of reconciliation or, or lack thereof. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah. Yeah. All true. Both those things actually did play a role, but according to an article from NBC, she said it was ultimately Christian nationalism that severed her ties.

RACHEL SZABO: Really?

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah. Okay, so here’s a tweet from December 2020. This is Beth Moore writing – “I do not believe these are days for mincing words. I’m 63 and a half years old, and I have never seen anything in these United States of America I found more astonishingly seductive and dangerous to the saints of God than Trumpism. This Christian nationalism is not of God. Move back from it.” 

RACHEL SZABO: Well, that was not subtle at all. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Right.

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, she’s equating nationalism with Donald Trump, and that’s also kind of what we saw happen on January 6. So my question is – is Christian nationalism synonymous with Donald Trump? 

JESSE EUBANKS: Well, no. The reason that we find so much connection is because many of the current displays we see – they are related to Trump’s presidency. But I do think that before we dive into Christian nationalism specifically, I think it might help to first just talk about religious nationalism in general. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, wait, what do you mean by religious nationalism? 

JESSE EUBANKS: Well, religious nationalism – you know, it’s a fusing of religious identity and citizenship identity, and that is a phenomenon that existed way before Trump. And it’s not even just confined to the United States. You know, scholars have written about religious nationalism happening in India and Turkey, the Philippines, and in fact, we actually see religious nationalism happening in the gospels.

In Matthew chapter three, John the Baptist begins to set up his public ministry and it becomes really popular. We’re told that people from all over the entire region – we’re talking about Jerusalem, Judea, and the Jordan – were going out to him and they were baptized by him. So it seems like John is no respecter of persons. Everybody is welcome – until the religious leaders show up. Verse seven says, “But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, ‘You brood of vipers.'” 

RACHEL SZABO: I feel like this is the beginnings of an ancient Israel equivalent of a Twitter rant. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Right? Publicly calling their leaders snakes is, like, probably not great for his PR. But then he says something that’s even more controversial – “And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.” Here’s what’s going on. Okay, so John was angry because these religious leaders had completely interwoven their identity before God with their national identity. Historians give us a famous saying among the people at the time – “Abraham sits near the gates of hell and suffers no Israelite to go down into it.” In other words – “You’re all good. You’re not gonna go to hell. Abraham’s got you covered.” 

RACHEL SZABO: Oh, I see. Okay. So the argument of these leaders was – since we’re from the line of Abraham, we don’t really need your baptism, John, or your, or your gospel. And maybe they didn’t say that outright, but I – John’s a pretty perceptive guy and I think he’s connecting the dots. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, and we would call this an example of religious nationalism. These religious leaders down at the Jordan River fuse their nationality and their spirituality to the point that, for them, there’s just no distinction.

RACHEL SZABO: But, you know, Israel was called as a nation chosen by God. Like their nationality absolutely was part of their religion, right? 

JESSE EUBANKS: Well, that’s true. You know, God did set up laws and plans with the nation of Israel, but it was never to the exclusion of others. You know, God repeatedly allows the foreigners and the immigrants among them to take part. There are countless verses in the Old Testament that talk about Gentiles being part of God’s kingdom, and yet we also see repeatedly Israel over-emphasizing their national identity with their hatred for Samaritans, with their over-identification with Abraham, and with their inability to accept the gospel that God was now bringing them through John and eventually through Jesus.

RACHEL SZABO: Oh, I see. So what you’re saying is it’s the classic mistake of the religious leaders completely missing the point. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, exactly. 

RACHEL SZABO: Well, so then here’s my next question then, because obviously this was pre-Christianity – so if what we’re talking about today is Christian nationalism specifically here in the United States, then what does that look like?

JESSE EUBANKS: Well, let me give you an example from a guy named Michael Mills.

MICHAEL MILLS: I grew up, uh, in Texas, um, out in west Texas, um, a small, small farming community that, um, you wouldn’t have heard of, uh, unless you’re from that area. 

JESSE EUBANKS: So this is Michael. He’s a Texan by birth, and he’s also a Baptist. And let me just say that this does not mean that everybody in Texas or everyone who’s a Baptist holds to Christian nationalism, but in Michael’s case, he clearly remembers this being a pervading idea for him.

MICHAEL MILLS: There was, um, a household down the street from us, uh – and they were actually kind of a distant family member – but somebody that we knew, somebody that I knew to be good Christians. It was, um, um, politicking season and we drove by their house and out in front of their house they had a blue sign, not a red sign, and that just blew my mind, um, because I didn’t know how somebody could be or claim to be a Christian and put a blue sign in your yard. And I didn’t know how to make sense of that, and so the way I made sense of it at that point in time was, “Oh, well they’re not a good Christian, or maybe even they’re not a Christian at all. I don’t know.” 

JESSE EUBANKS: See, for Michael to be a Christian was to be an American conservative Republican. That was just an understood part of the faith. 

MICHAEL MILLS: But my understanding that I received was, um, that pretty well everybody’s a Christian and pretty well everybody, uh, is a Republican and that those two things go hand in hand.

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so I see this, this fusion happening of his religious identity and his civic identity. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah. In the world that he grew up in, those two things were synonymous. 

RACHEL SZABO: Gotcha.

JESSE EUBANKS: So fast forward, Michael graduates high school and he decides to go to seminary to go to what was at the time the largest seminary in the U.S. – Fuller Seminary near Los Angeles. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay. Wait. Hang on. So small town Texas boy is gonna go to California. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, it sounds like the setup for, like, a good joke. 

RACHEL SZABO: Uh-huh. Yeah. This has to be interesting. 

JESSE EUBANKS: So I don’t know if interesting is the right word. Uh, jarring might be a better description. 

MICHAEL MILLS: I immediately stepped into a situation where I was in a classroom of fellow Christians from a whole host of different denominational backgrounds and even from places all over the world.

JESSE EUBANKS: He found himself sitting in class next to Lutherans, next to Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, uh, Christians who claimed no denomination. These folks did not look like him. They didn’t talk like him. Some of them did not hold to the same political views as he did. 

MICHAEL MILLS: And yet we were sitting in the same classroom having the same conversation and learning about the same things. We were learning about the same God. And that, like, and that was something I really had to come to terms with, and it was very disorienting at first. 

JESSE EUBANKS: So, because for Michael, he had this, like, very prescriptive way of understanding what it means to be a Christian – you know, it looks this way politically, it looks this way ethnically, it looks this way culturally – he has this whole worldview and now all of a sudden he’s sitting in this classroom with all this diversity, he basically has two options. Either all these people in his seminary class are not actually Christians because they aren’t white, conservative Republicans or he’s been wrong about what it means to be a Christian, and that ends up causing a whole crisis of faith for him.

MICHAEL MILLS: And I had just felt like my, my legs had been swept out from underneath me and I remember, um, walking to lunch with, um, my girlfriend at the time, uh, and I remember just being so disoriented and I remember telling her, “So I know I’m here studying to be something of a, a Christian minister, but after that class I don’t even know if I’m a Christian anymore. And if that means that you don’t wanna date me anymore, that’s okay and I understand.” Uh, and, and she’s, uh, very sweet, very gracious, and she kind of looked at me and, and said, “Well, does that mean that we can’t go have lunch?” 

JESSE EUBANKS: (laughs) That’s funny. 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah. 

MICHAEL MILLS: But that, it was just a very disorienting experience initially.

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so you’re saying that basically Michael is displaying Christian nationalism because he holds to this very strict worldview of what it means to be a Christian in America. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah. Right. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay. Well, here’s my problem with that though. So you look at this example from Michael – small town boy, God and country, whatever – and we’re saying, “Here’s an example of Christian nationalism.” Then you look at the riots and the protests from January 6, and we’re saying, “Here’s also an example of Christian nationalism.” And that to me feels like we’re comparing apples and oranges, like there’s a big gap between those two things. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. It could seem unfair on the surface, but I think it’s important to realize, like, Christian nationalism isn’t like a light switch, meaning that it’s either on or off. It’s either present or it’s not present at all. Instead, it’s more like a sliding scale, and here’s why. 

SAMUEL PERRY: So when we say Christian nationalism, what we mean is an ideology that idealizes and advocates a fusion of American civic life and belonging with a very particular kind of Christianity. 

JESSE EUBANKS: So this is Dr. Samuel Perry. He’s a sociologist and has been studying Christian nationalism here in the United States for seven years, and through his studies, he’s found that this fusion of American identity and Christian identity can be summarized in six popular beliefs. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so what are those six beliefs? 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so the federal government should, number one, declare the United States a Christian nation; two, advocate Christian values; three, not enforce strict separation of church and state; four, allow the display of religious symbols in public spaces; five, allow prayer in public schools; and six, that the United States is part of God’s plan, meaning it plays a special role in the advancement of Christianity. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so he’s saying that these are kind of six major ingredients that make up Christian nationalism.

JESSE EUBANKS: Exactly. 

RACHEL SZABO: Gotcha.

SAMUEL PERRY: What they have in mind is traditional values, is cultural conservatism, is ethnically, if not racially white, uh, born in the United States. They believe that America, this ideology says that America has been and should always be distinctively Christian in that sense. It is for, quote, “people like us.”

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, but some of these things – you know, like displaying religious symbols or having prayer in public school – like everyone – okay, maybe not everyone, but a lot of Christians I know – would agree with those things. So based on these, you know, core beliefs that he’s talking about, is Dr. Perry saying that basically every Christian in America is a nationalist?

JESSE EUBANKS: Well, no. Okay. So in 2017 he did a study to see just how popular these beliefs were and what he found was that there are varying degrees of Christian nationalism throughout our society and he breaks these degrees down into four distinct categories, so maybe it’d be helpful if we took a look at those now. Imagine a line that has four segments, two to the left of center and two to the right of center. 

SAMUEL PERRY: On the far left, the people who reject Christian nationalism completely, we call “rejectors.” 

JESSE EUBANKS: So group number one – rejectors. They are on the far left end of the line. About 21% of the population scores in this category. These folks are not really going to agree with any of those six beliefs. They will at least somewhat disagree with all of them. 

SAMUEL PERRY: Next to them, we have this group we call “resisters.” They’re still below average in terms of how much they affirm Christian nationalist ideology. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Group number two is “resisters” – still to the left, but closer to the middle. About 26% of Americans land here on the scale. We’re saying one in four Americans, this is where they are. So they’ll disagree to most things, but maybe be unsure about or slightly agree with one or two items. So rejectors and resisters are the first two groups.

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so on the whole, they’re not really agreeing with the Christian nationalist ideology, those six beliefs that Dr. Perry talked about. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Right, they either flat out reject it or they’re highly reluctant about a lot of the items on the list. Okay, so those are the first two groups and they’re on the left side of the line, but then we cross over the midline to the other end of the spectrum.

SAMUEL PERRY: On the other side of the average, you have this large group that we call “accommodators” of Christian nationalism. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Third group – “accommodators.” 

SAMUEL PERRY: Now, accommodators of Christian nationalism are the plurality of Americans. They’re about a third, about 33% of Americans. This is because, like, majority of Americans are still Christian or friendly to Christianity, uh, and they, you know, are, are friendly to the idea of some influence of religion on politics, right? That religious symbols should be displayed in public spaces – “Who cares?” You know, or that, uh, prayer in public schools – “Yes, that’s a good thing.” Or that maybe God does have a special plan for the United States. And so they’re, they’re not willing to reject it, they’re friendly toward it, but they’re not true believers. They probably have some problems with the idea of declaring the United States a Christian nation or there being no separation between church and state. 

JESSE EUBANKS: So these folks are friendly to some nationalist ideology and they’re comfortable with it, and it’s important to note that this is the largest group on the scale. We’re talking one in three Americans. That means that out of all the categories, this one is the most common, which means that pro-Christian nationalism to some extent – it permeates a lot of our society. 

SAMUEL PERRY: The last group is on the far right. That’s the group that we call “ambassadors” of Christian nationalism. Uh, these are the true believers and they make up about 20% of the American population in our surveys and that comes out to around 30 million adults. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Fourth group – “ambassadors.” This is actually the smallest group, and they are fully supportive of Christianity being recognized and implemented by the government and may even fight to make that happen. Some of the protesters on January 6 likely fall into this category because they can tend to be more radicalized. But as Dr. Perry points out, this isn’t a one-to-one equation.

SAMUEL PERRY: And so I always have to be careful to say ambassadors of Christian nationalism are more likely to hold certain views. I’m not saying ambassadors of Christian nationalism always think this and this and this. That, that would be inaccurate because people are people and they’re complicated.

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so when it comes to a scale of Christian nationalism, there are “rejectors,” “resisters,” “accommodators,” and “ambassadors.” Okay, now notice what is not part of this definition. We’re not talking about having an American flag outside your house or supporting veterans. We’re not even necessarily talking about being patriotic. What we’re talking about is a mashup of Christianity and America and making the two synonymous, in particular when it comes to politics. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so someone can hold to Christian nationalist ideology – and in fact, I guess according to that survey, a lot of people hold to Christian nationalist ideology – but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re gonna be radical about it and go storm the Capitol.

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, absolutely. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay. So yeah, this scale actually makes things really interesting. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, like what’s it making you think about? 

RACHEL SZABO: Well, for this episode, I ended up talking with two different people to find out how Christian nationalism is being played out in the everyday life of the church and both of these people had a significant turning point in their life and that turning point caused them to act on Christian nationalism. But, according to this, they acted on completely opposite ends of the scale. 

KEN PETERS: I think America is special. I’ll admit it, I’m romantic about this country. 

AMANDA TYLER: That was the straw that said, “We have to do something to push back against Christian nationalism.”

RACHEL SZABO: Coming up – a house arrest, a synagogue, and a church painted like the American flag. We’ll be right back.

COMMERCIAL

JESSE EUBANKS: It’s the Love Thy Neighborhood podcast. I’m Jesse Eubanks. 

RACHEL SZABO: And I’m Rachel Szabo. Today’s episode is where the gospel meets nationalism. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so we just looked at four categories on the scale of Christian nationalism, and now, Rachel, you’ve got some stories about that. 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, so I interviewed two people who both dedicate their work to some of the ideologies of Christian nationalism, but they would fall on opposite ends of this scale. And the first person I talked to is a pastor named Ken Peters. So Ken is a pastor in Tennessee and he’s always been a sort of, you know, “God and country” kinda guy, but two years ago something happened that made him question what was going on around him. 

KEN PETERS: You know, I think the tipping point for me, a friend of mine said, “Hey, can you come help me support this pastor? He’s going to jail for having church,” and I just couldn’t believe it. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so the pastor Ken went to go see was a guy named Tony Spell. And long story short, Tony had been placed on house arrest for his church not complying with Covid large gathering restrictions. 

KEN PETERS: And this ankle bracelet would buzz on him every 15 minutes just to let him know that he was on house arrest. And, and to see him in tears say, “You know what breaks my heart the most is that I’m missing my bus route.” You know, he, he would bus in underprivileged kids, and he was in tears in his living room because for the first time in his pastoral ministry he missed his bus route. 

RACHEL SZABO: Now, we’re not gonna get into Covid and restrictions and vaccines and any of that. That’s not the point of this episode or this story. The point is is that Ken suddenly felt like he had a wake-up call.

KEN PETERS: And I’m sitting here in his living room, and I’m going, “This is not the country that I grew up in. We are in trouble.” I think that was the moment where I’m like, “Okay, we’re gonna fight. I’m not gonna sit around and pretend like nothing’s wrong. I’m gonna be the good Samaritan to this nation.”

RACHEL SZABO: And the way he decided to do that was through a new kind of church. So, in 2020, Ken founded what is called Patriot Church. So this is the description that they give on their Facebook page, quote, “A new church plant for Christians who love Jesus and love the United States of America. We take a strong stand on current issues like the abolition of abortion, freedom from tyranny and government overreaching, and a love for the U.S. traditional values,” end quote. Oh yeah. And the roof of the barn building where they meet is painted like a 60-foot American flag. 

JESSE EUBANKS: What? 

KEN PETERS: Now I will say we did not paint that. It was already here when we began to, uh, rent the building, but we did not paint that there. But it was fitting. We were planting a church called Patriot Church and there’s this building available with the flag and we’re like, “Thank you, Jesus. Why, it’s, it’s a sign from heaven.” 

RACHEL SZABO: So Patriot Church has six core values on their website. Those are the word of God, the witness of the Spirit, the work of the church, the walk of holiness, the well-being of the family, and the winning of our nation. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. What is the winning of our nation? 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, I had the same question, so I asked Ken to explain that one a little bit. 

KEN PETERS: The winning of our nation means the winning of it for God. So if I was gonna put a prepositional phrase onto that to define it better or to clarify, I would put, “For God.” We, we don’t wanna, we don’t wanna just win. We’re not, we’re not trying to just beat the Russians or beat China or beat Mexico. We, we, we wanna win the nation for Jesus Christ. 

RACHEL SZABO: And one of the ways that they do that is by being openly unapologetic about their politics.

KEN PETERS: I mean, that’s one of the things that makes Patriot Church unique, is we’re going to speak freely how we feel concerning politics or politicians, not because we love politics, but because we believe in morals and we wanna speak morality to the politicians, morality to the nation. So if there’s a politician that we believe stands up for righteousness, at least to a certain level, we’re going to get behind that person.

RACHEL SZABO: But ultimately Ken says that he does believe that it’s the church that’s going to make the most impact. 

KEN PETERS: I don’t think Black Lives Matter can save us. I don’t think Antifa is gonna save us. I don’t even think the MAGA movement ultimately can save us. I think the only thing that can save us is the gospel of Jesus Christ through the church of Jesus Christ. We have the answer. We have the truth. The truth goes marching on, but only if the church carries it. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, I’m tracking with him there. You know, all these social movements that we may believe in are not ultimately gonna save us. Okay. 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, but in my conversation with him, I did sometimes find it tricky to parse out church from country.

KEN PETERS: The nation is a, uh, beacon of liberty for people. It, it, we, we support missions like, like no other country. And so America falls, and I think this world, uh, crumbles. I think that’s the end. I think this nation holds up the bit of good that we still have here on planet Earth. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, like I was with Ken – I, Ken just lost me. And I think a lot of the reason is because he’s, he’s using evangelistic language for something that is not the gospel. He’s, like, convoluting these two narratives, right? Like the calling of the church to represent the body of Christ to the world, for us to take forward the good news of the gospel of Jesus to help set the captives free.

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah. To uphold righteousness. 

JESSE EUBANKS: To uphold righteousness. But he’s, he’s taking all that language, and he’s saying, “Well, America basically does that.” And that is not true. That’s just not, that’s not the function of a nation, a country. And I just think using religious language to describe a country is the easiest way for us to slide into a zealous nationalism that doesn’t really actually understand the Bible anymore ’cause I don’t think it’s justified by the Bible. So in listening to Ken and all this that we’re talking through, like where does Ken land on the scale? What do you think? 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, so just based on, on listening to him and some of the things that he’s talking about and some of these, you know, Christian nationalist ideologies, I, I would venture to say that he’s landing somewhere on the far end of accommodator or probably leaning over into the, the ambassador phase.

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, that seems about right. 

RACHEL SZABO: And I actually asked Ken outright, you know, “Would you call yourself a Christian nationalist?” 

KEN PETERS: That is the accusation that I receive all the time. Now listen, Christian nationalist is a derogatory term, so I understand why they label us Christian nationalists. It is, is an attempt to discredit us, to call us bigots, to call us Nazis, to call us racists. It’s brilliant. The left is brilliant with their verbiage and their terminology. They win the narrative battle repeatedly. So I understand why they’re doing it, but they’re doing it to label guys like me – who 20 years ago was just a pastor, “God and country, Christian schools, loved his family” – now I’ve been labeled a term that is tied in with Nazi Germany. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, and what Ken is referring to there is comparisons that have been made from folks like historian Robert Erickson between Christian support for Donald Trump and Christian support for Hitler. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, you know, this was not part of Dr. Sam Perry’s six core ideologies, but what Ken’s talking about is another common factor. Again, here’s Dr. Perry. 

SAMUEL PERRY: Christian nationalism really is very specific about who the nation rightfully belongs to and who are the outsiders. Well, in Christian nationalist thinking, the outsiders are the people who are not like us. They are the people who are secular, and I don’t mean secular in like they just don’t identify as Christians. I mean secular culturally, right? Like they, they are liberals. They are socialists. They’re often thought of as the anti-American and especially within Christian nationalist ideology because they encompass atheism, anti-capitalism and liberalism and radicalism. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, you know, it’s like an “us versus them” mentality. Actually, in hearing Ken talk, it reminds me of the whole social justice debate. 

RACHEL SZABO: What do you mean? 

JESSE EUBANKS: Well, you know, we’ve been dealing with this for years as Love Thy Neighborhood where social justice, that term, it means one thing to one person, it means another thing to another person, and like everybody is working from different dictionaries.

RACHEL SZABO: Oh, so you’re saying just like with social justice, people take it to mean different things, and Ken’s definition of Christian nationalism saying, “Well, it’s about Nazis” – that’s different from just a straightforward kind of textbook answer or even Dr. Perry’s definition. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Right, right. And I think it’s important that when we’re talking about, like, big concepts like this, especially ones that have such heat and reaction behind them, is that we gotta remember context plays a huge role in this. As a matter of fact, Dr. Perry made a surprising discovery while conducting his study and that discovery – it is all about context – in this case, ethnic context. 

SAMUEL PERRY: We often find that black Americans score relatively high on our Christian nationalism scale. 

RACHEL SZABO: Really?

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah. 

RACHEL SZABO: That’s surprising. 

JESSE EUBANKS: I know, I know. Okay, so when it comes to Christian nationalism, what’s like the stereotypical person that you picture?

RACHEL SZABO: Oh yeah, like white, highly conservative Republican. Michael Mills, that guy. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Okay. Dr. Perry’s research showed that African Americans scored just as high and sometimes even higher than white folks when it comes to holding these ideologies, and his answer for this is context. 

SAMUEL PERRY: For white Americans when they read our questions about a Christian nation or Christian values or God’s special relationship with America, they tend to think nostalgically, right? They, they look back on some kind of time in the past where the right people and the right culture really had influence and cultural, uh, dominance and they, they wanna go back to that. Black Americans don’t see our, our language about Christian heritage or Christian nation and think, “Oh, that time years ago when, when people like us were in power.” Why would they, right? So they’re more likely to interpret that kind of language aspirationally or in the, in the language of accountability, something America should have been and never has met, that value that America has never lived up to.

RACHEL SZABO: Interesting. So depending on kinda where you’re coming from, these ideologies can mean different things. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Right.

RACHEL SZABO: And that context that he’s talking about of, you know, white Americans kind of looking back on this time – that seems to fall pretty in line with where Ken is coming from. 

KEN PETERS: I think America is special. I’ll admit it, I’m romantic about this country. I don’t think it’s like every other country. I think it’s, it’s a miracle of God. This nation is a miracle of God. We were founded on the best constitution. We weren’t perfect, but our constitution is built such that we can course correct and we have made some course corrections along the way. So I think this nation is beautiful, um, not perfect, but I think it is beautiful and I, and I believe it is a beacon of, of righteousness.

JESSE EUBANKS: A lot of what Ken is saying, I actually grew up hearing. I didn’t realize that I was quite as immersed in Christian nationalism as I was until I got older. I mean, even in my own family, if I’m talking with older Christians in my family, they do have a nostalgia for America, a sense in which there was a time in which America was following God faithfully.

RACHEL SZABO: Mm-hmm.

JESSE EUBANKS: And if we could just get back to that, then everything would be okay. I mean, think about Trump’s campaign slogan. What was it? 

RACHEL SZABO: “Make America Great Again.” 

JESSE EUBANKS: “Again.” It’s looking backwards. 

RACHEL SZABO: Well, and I think it also, it discredits the work that God is doing all around the world. You know, if we’re just gonna say, “Well, America is special and divinely blessed,” then we have to ignore the incredible spread of Christianity happening in tons of other nations. I mean, you look at places like Africa, and it’s spreading like wildfire. 

JESSE EUBANKS: It’s growing in other sections of the world much faster than it’s growing in America. We’re actually declining. 

RACHEL SZABO: Right, and I think to, to hold to some of these views is to downplay the bigness of God and the scope of God’s mission.

JESSE EUBANKS: What Ken is sharing here just flat out – it does not represent a biblical Christianity. It requires some serious theological gymnastics to hold up America as divinely beloved at the expense of the rest of the world. I don’t think that you can find that in Scripture, and I think that that says a lot more about a culture that we cultivate in our own country than it actually does about what the Bible itself teaches.

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so remember I said I talked to two people, and that was the first conversation I had with Ken Peters. The second one was with a faithful, church-going Baptist named Amanda Tyler. So Amanda is actually the executive director for the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty – or BJC as they’re known – and BJC’s focus is on fighting for religious freedom. 

AMANDA TYLER: It’s really important for us that we do have an institutional separation of religion and government, that government does not impede, uh, on our ability to follow our faith and that we do the same for all of our neighbors as well.

RACHEL SZABO: And here’s the thing is that while Christian nationalism may be popular in the media right now, it’s not a new phenomenon and it was on the radar of the folks at BJC years before January 6 took place. And in fact, it was something that happened all the way back in 2018 that became the turning point for Amanda.

NEWS CLIPS: The accused gunman behind the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre… Rabbi Jonathan Perlman of Dor Hadash hid his congregants downstairs… Gunman opened fire at the Tree of Life synagogue killing 11 people… Pittsburgh SWAT officers on the third floor. He can be heard…

AMANDA TYLER: There was the Tree of Life synagogue shooting in October of 2018. That was the deadliest attack on Jews in the United States ever, where a white supremacist went into a synagogue and murdered people because they were Jewish.

RACHEL SZABO: So this shooter was known online for being radically conservative and part of alt-right circles, and one of his social media pages said, quote, “Jews are the children of Satan. The Lord Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.” End quote. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Whoa. 

AMANDA TYLER: And this was particularly alarming and horrific example of violent Christian nationalism.

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so thinking back to Dr. Perry’s scale, like, so what if a third of Americans have some Christian nationalist tendencies? You know, I think the country’s pretty great. I like the laws of our country. I think that we do great things. So what if a few bad ideas also get imported into my worldview? Mostly, 90% of my worldview, it’s good. I just like the country, and I have a few thoughts that are maybe a little more radical – like, so what? But I think the whole thing is, like, those little radical ideas can morph into some crazy thoughts that cause us to do horrible things, and I’m gonna guess that, like, this kind of radicalization, like, does not happen suddenly. It’s a slow and gradual process that comes from a certain worldview. 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, and I think we should be concerned about this. You know, just last month, the scientific journal Political Behavior published research related to Christian nationalism and violence, and what they found was that people who agree with certain nationalist ideology – like the government should declare the U.S. a Christian nation – were also more likely to agree that violence is sometimes an acceptable way to express disagreement. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Really? 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, in fact, this study found that 17.7% of white weekly churchgoers fall into the top quarter of those who feel violence can be justified. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Wow. That is incredible. That’s nearly one in five. Yeah, I think it’s a heartbreaking prospect, the idea that somebody could sit in our pews week after week, they could be in our Bible studies, they could be the person that we’re texting with, that we do life with, that we study the Bible with, and that we could sit there with them and then realize like, “Oh, they love their worldview that elevates the country, that elevates whiteness, that elevates capitalism, whatever it is – it elevates it so much so that they justify tyranny against others and that somehow they think it’s ordained by God. 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, so I think when it comes to Christian nationalism, you posed the question, you know, “So what?” Well, I think the answer to that is, you know, what’s at stake here is not just, “Oh, these are my freedoms, these are my rights in this country.” What’s at stake are people’s lives and also a perversion of the gospel. You know, if we’re not careful, we can think that we’re spreading the gospel when really all we’re doing is spreading the American dream. And so after that 2018 synagogue shooting, Amanda knew it was time to act. 

AMANDA TYLER: That was the straw that said, “We have to do something as Christians to push back against Christian nationalism. This is an urgent and deadly threat to our country.” 

RACHEL SZABO: But the question was – how? How do you begin to tackle something so big whose ideologies to some degree pervade a third of our country? Stay with us.

COMMERCIAL

JESSE EUBANKS: Love Thy Neighborhood podcast. Jesse Eubanks. 

RACHEL SZABO: Rachel Szabo. Today – where the gospel meets nationalism. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so Rachel, you’ve been telling me about Amanda Tyler, and she’s now looking for a way to combat Christian nationalism. 

RACHEL SZABO: That’s right, yes. And the way that Amanda and her team at Baptist Joint Committee decided that they were gonna fight against the big topic of Christian nationalism was with a signed statement.

JESSE EUBANKS: (laughs) That’s the most Baptist thing I’ve ever heard. 

RACHEL SZABO: I know, right? 

AMANDA TYLER: And so early in 2019, we started putting together this statement of principles where we call out Christian nationalism.

RACHEL SZABO: And, you know, you and I joke about it, but really here’s what’s behind the idea – is that Amanda wanted a way to be able to quickly and concisely talk about this issue.

AMANDA TYLER: You know, I think so much of this, it is about being self-reflective and self-critical. We are not about pointing fingers about other people. We’re not saying, “Look at those Christian nationalists over there.” We’re saying we all deal with Christian nationalism in our society. Where can we start to recognize it and start to see ways that it’s impacting our faith, how it threatens, you know, our concept of even what it means to be a Christian, what it means to Christianity?

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so, uh, what was in the statement? What was it? 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so the statement is called “Christians Against Christian Nationalism,” and here’s how it starts. “As Christians, our faith teaches us everyone is created in God’s image and commands us to love one another. As Americans, we value our system of government and the good that can be accomplished in our constitutional democracy. Christian nationalism seeks to merge Christian and American identities, distorting both the Christian faith and America’s constitutional democracy.”

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so I can understand. So she’s essentially just trying to say, like, we need to keep those two things separate.

RACHEL SZABO: Right, and Amanda sees this work as crucial in those two areas – in our spiritual identity and our earthly identity. So first – spiritual identity. 

AMANDA TYLER: Christian nationalism is antithetical to the very foundational premise that Jesus Christ is Lord, and I think too often we as Christians can be divided about the things that we don’t agree on. Here we wanted to say, you know, above all else, we agree that Jesus Christ alone is Lord. And we see Christian nationalism as an urgent threat to that confession. 

RACHEL SZABO: And of course, that threat being a reversal of importance between our spiritual identity as citizens of God’s kingdom and our earthly identity as citizens of our country. And so Christian nationalism, you know, easily either flip flops those or muddles them together to form a brand new identity. So that’s the first area is our spiritual identity. And the second is our earthly identity. 

AMANDA TYLER: Christian nationalism is antithetical to the foundational ideas of religious freedom for all. That’s because Christian nationalism demands a privileged place for Christianity and asks the government to prop up Christianity in certain ways and that goes against all of the constitutional protections that we have for religious freedom for all, including this idea that we are all equal citizens regardless of our religious faith. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, let me, let me stop for a second. I have a question. 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Um, okay, so Ken is on one end of this scale, Dr. Perry’s scale. 

RACHEL SZABO: Right. 

JESSE EUBANKS: And Ken is essentially saying, like, all six of these points depends on how you nuance them, but he’s gonna affirm them. 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, he’s gonna say most of them are, are probably good. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay. Then at the other end of the scale, you’ve got Amanda and she’s gonna look at all six of these points and she’s gonna go, “They’re bad. We should not as Christians be affirming any of these six points.” 

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, I think that’s probably fair. I, I mean she would probably like to see all of that eradicated. Yes. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay. Okay. So we’ve got Ken saying, “This scale is affirming good things.” We’ve got Amanda saying, “This scale is revealing bad things, we need to fight against it.” Are, are we saying that every Christian should be at one end of this scale or the, or another, like I’m, I’m sure that Ken would love to have people at his end of the scale. I’m sure that Amanda would have, love to have people at her end. I will be honest – I am not where Ken is, but I am also not where Amanda is. Like there are definitively things on that list of six items that, almost regardless of how you interpret them, I’m probably opposed to, but there are also some things on that list of six items that, you know, depending on how you nuance them, I would support, and so I don’t find myself at either end of the scale with either one of them exactly. 

RACHEL SZABO: Well, again, I think it, it goes back to the whole, the context and, and what’s your definition of it. You know, if your definition of Christian nationalism is these violent displays, then yeah, we’re gonna say that’s all bad. But if your definition of Christian nationalism is, “Well, I think the government should intervene in, in some areas, maybe not all, but in some cases it’s good,” well, it, it gets a little gray there, you know. It kind of depends on your personal convictions on what’s the role of the government and the church, you know? 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, yeah. 

RACHEL SZABO: But I think to your point, I, I, I don’t know that it’s the right question, you know? I don’t think the question is – is this good or is this bad? I think more the question – and I think what, what Amanda is trying to put forth with this statement – is less about “Here’s the bad things,” but more about like, “Let’s recognize it. Let’s name it. Let’s find out where this is happening. Let’s see it in our own lives.” It’s more about kind of an awareness and a realizing than, “Well, this person’s good and this person’s bad.”

AMANDA TYLER: We say this applies to us all, and that way Christian nationalism is a lot like racism. You know, it is pervasive in our society. Just like it’s not productive or even accurate to label some people as racists compared to others, we don’t label some people as Christian nationalists compared to others. We say we’re all impacted by Christian nationalism, just like we’re all impacted by racism. Now we’re impacted and we buy into those ideologies and those structures in different degrees and in different ways. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so they released the statement, and then how was it received? 

RACHEL SZABO: Okay, so to date, the “Christians Against Christian Nationalism” statement has over 24,000 signatures from people all over the country. But for Amanda, you know, there’s not necessarily a certain number they’re trying to reach to say, “Ah, yes, now we’ve conquered Christian nationalism.” You know, she knows that it’s a deeply embedded narrative in our country and in our lives, and she knows the work is only getting started, but that it needs a start somewhere.

AMANDA TYLER: This is not a short project. When we launched in 2019, we didn’t say this is gonna be a five-year project or this is gonna be a 10-year project. This is an indefinite project because Christian nationalism, having had centuries to seep down into the soil of our culture, it’s gonna take a long time for us to dig up those roots and to finally eradicate it.

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay, so the million dollar question – what do we do with all this? And if there’s any takeaway or application point, I would say that it’s these two things. First, educate yourself – things like listening to this podcast or checking out Amanda’s statement or reading Dr. Perry’s book. Don’t let the media and specifically social media be your only source of information. Do your own discovering about Christian nationalism. 

RACHEL SZABO: You know, one good resource actually might be our episode on politics because, you know, we aren’t saying that in order to, you know, avoid Christian nationalism you need to not engage in the public square. Like we should be involved in our country for the sake of our neighbors, but we need to remember also that ultimately God doesn’t need the government to accomplish his work.

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, I think that’s great. We’ll leave some links in the show notes if you need some places to start. So first, educate. Second, get exposure. For so many Christians in the United States, the version of Christianity that we know and are familiar with – it’s just way too small. So remember Michael from all the way back at the beginning of the episode?

RACHEL SZABO: Oh yeah. Texas Boy, went to seminary, had a crisis of faith.

JESSE EUBANKS: Right, and part of that crisis of faith was due to a lack of exposure. He didn’t know anybody beyond his small town where everybody looked like him and talked like him, and the exposure he got from being around all types of Christians in seminary – while it did initially cause a significant crisis of faith – it actually ended up leading him to a more robust understanding of his faith. Toward the end of Michael’s time in seminary, he actually did end up resolving those questions of faith, and he made a firm decision. He knew that he was a Christian. But this newfound vibrancy in his faith – it actually also brought with it a different problem. 

MICHAEL MILLS: And, um, I was feeling lost in terms of my place in our kind of denominational world. I, I knew that the way of being Baptist that I kind of received, um, it, it no longer fit with me. Um, there was too much dissonance there. 

JESSE EUBANKS: For him, Christianity no longer seemed to hold some of his nationalist beliefs. But for many of the folks that he knew, it still did, and the truth is that he just felt out of place. So he told all of this to a buddy of his from seminary.

MICHAEL MILLS: And, uh, I was venting to him one day about all of my disgruntledness with the, the way of being Baptist that I kind of received. 

JESSE EUBANKS: And his friend directed him to some resources that ultimately led Michael to Amanda’s work and the “Christians Against Christian Nationalism” statement.

RACHEL SZABO: Really?

MICHAEL MILLS: When I first did that and, and read the statement – I don’t love conflict. And so my mind immediately went to the implications of me signing this and if, if that is going to create conflict for me – I have to, you know, within myself, I have to get over that aversion to conflict. Um, and thankfully I was able to do that and to be able to say, “Yes, this is something that I want my name on, uh, because it’s something that I believe in.”

JESSE EUBANKS: So of those 24,000 signatures you mentioned that had signed the statement, Michael is actually one of them. And when he looks back on his early years and his early Christianity that was steeped in some nationalist thought, he says he doesn’t really feel guilt or shame. He actually feels something else.

MICHAEL MILLS: Probably the most overwhelming feeling that I have and it, it certainly holds today is just kind of, um, a sense of lament that, that Christian nationalism is so pervasive in our country right now. And I lament what that means for our identity as American citizens and our identity as Christians, uh, because I think it’s detrimental to both.

JESSE EUBANKS: Today, Michael is a pastor in Texas and he does what he can to educate his congregation about Christian nationalism because for him, religion fused with nationality – that no longer works. 

MICHAEL MILLS: I think there is a way of being patriotic and being proud to be an American because there’s so much that’s good and beautiful and and wonderful about what it means to be an American citizen, and I think there’s a lot there that we have to call out and to highlight and fight for and at the same time not confuse those things with the ideas of nationalism. Um, and that’s hard to do. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, you know, I think about the fact that our country has a unique constitution. It’s unlike any other system in any other country.

RACHEL SZABO: Yeah, and, you know, if you think about some of the freedoms that have been afforded to us in this country, like speech and religion – you know, not perfectly always, of course, and, and not always for everyone, you know, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, fine print – but the fact that those things are part of the building blocks embedded into our structure and the goals we’re shooting for, like those are things to celebrate.

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah. As Christians, you know, we aren’t called to give thanks when things are perfect. We’re called to give thanks at all times. And there are things that we can find to be thankful for about the physical land that we live in, but the other side effect that we do is that it also causes us to minimize the sins and the evil that we as a nation do and I think that Christian nationalism exaggerates America’s goodness and downplays America’s sin and I think that the gospel brings America back into its proper place. We can celebrate and be thankful for the good gifts that America brings, but we can also be very realistic about how broken we are because all man-made systems are broken and America was made by men, not by God. So we can be grateful for the country that we live in, but we also know it can never save us. 

MICHAEL MILLS: But I think it’s, it’s worth it to dig deeper than that and to find that distinction between, well, what is good about being an American? What is great about our country? How do we celebrate that and fight for that while saying, “This expression of nationalism that I see – it’s not the same thing. It’s something different”? And that’s, that’s a lot of work honestly. It’s a lot of, uh, intentional work to be able to distinguish and differentiate in what we’re seeing in the world today. But I really, I really do think that it can be a beautiful thing to be proud to be an American, but we have to live that out in a, in a better way than we’re doing right now.

JESSE EUBANKS: And Michael believes that a better way is possible. And as he continues to educate himself and expose himself to other worldviews, he doesn’t see those who hold Christian nationalist beliefs as enemies. Instead, he sees them as people just like himself, people who need education and exposure. 

MICHAEL MILLS: Because I think there’s a lot to be gained in terms of Christian identity from those that have just existed in kind of an understanding of Christian nationalism. Like I feel like the, the heart is there, uh, and I think the heart is still pure for the most part, but to be able to call it out, to teach, and to give people language for it – I think that’s work that is worthwhile and, and I do carry a sense of hope that where those conversations are happening the tide will begin to turn on this issue.

JESSE EUBANKS: In the gospel of Matthew, John the Baptist calls out religious nationalism in the heart of their leaders. But in the gospel of John, Jesus himself addresses it. When he’s at the temple in Jerusalem teaching about sin and freedom, those present retort back, “Abraham is our father.” And Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did. Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him. The people had so confused their spiritual and earthly identities that they were unable to see when the God of the universe was standing right in front of them and that God has purchased us across national lines and across ethnic lines. Paul told the Galatians, “There’s neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free. There is no male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.” So yes, be grateful for your citizenship. God told his people when they were in the corrupt city of Babylon to work for the good and the peace of the city. So don’t ignore the earthly location God has you in, but also remember America is not the kingdom of God. You have brothers and sisters all over the world, and one day God will bring us all together in a new earth and a new country. Isn’t that so much more worth fighting for?

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JESSE EUBANKS: If you benefited at all from this podcast, please help us out by leaving a review wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. Your review will help other people discover our show.

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JESSE EUBANKS: Special thanks to our interviewees for this episode – Michael Mills, Dr. Samuel Perry, Ken Peters, and Amanda Tyler. 

RACHEL SZABO: Our senior producer and host is Jesse Eubanks. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Our co-host and producer is Rachel Szabo, who this morning amazingly found two matching socks. 

KEN PETERS: “Thank you, Jesus. It’s a sign from heaven.”

RACHEL SZABO: Anna Tran is our audio engineer. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Music for today’s episode comes from Lee Rosevere, Poddington Bear, and Blue Dot Sessions. Theme music and commercial music by Murphy DX. 

RACHEL SZABO: If you want a hands-on experience of missions in our modern times, come serve with Love Thy Neighborhood. We offer internships for young adults ages 18 to 30 through the areas of service, community, and discipleship. You’ll grow in your faith and life skills. Learn more at lovethyneighborhood.org. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Which of these was a neighbor to the man in need? The one who showed mercy. Jesus tells us, “Go, and do likewise.”