#20: Where the Gospel Meets Social Justice

#20: Where the Gospel Meets Social Justice

Note: The Love Thy Neighborhood podcast is made for the ear, and not the eye. We would encourage you to listen to the audio for the full emotional emphasis of this episode. The following transcription may contain errors. Please refer to the audio before quoting any content from this episode. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Hey guys, it’s Jesse. Two things before we get started with today’s episode. The first thing is that at the very beginning of this season we told you that this episode was gonna be about mass incarceration. As you can see from the title of this episode, our plans have changed. We promise we’re going to return to that topic next season, but something has come up that we just felt we had to explore. 

Second, it is the end of the year, which is a really big deal for nonprofits like us because we depend on donations from people just like you to be able to make the podcasts we make and to be able to do the boots-on-the-ground ministry that we do. Y’know, as you listen to this, there are young adults all over our city that are doing real-world ministry and they are funded by folks just like you. Well, we’ve had some donors come together to create a $50,000 matching grant. That means that every dollar that you donate between now and the end of the year will automatically be doubled. So please head over to lovethyneighborhood.org/donate. We promise we will honor your gift to us, we will put it to good use, and we will make a real difference in someone’s life with the gospel. Okay, on to the episode. 

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JESSE EUBANKS: Okay so recently, a group of more than 10,000 Christians signed a public statement of Christian theology. The purpose of the document was to bring clarity about how Christians should respond to the modern public issues of our time.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Yeah, here’s part of the introduction to this document. Quote ‘In view of questionable sociological, psychological, and political theories presently permeating our culture and making inroads into Christ’s church, we wish to clarify certain key Christian doctrines and ethical principles prescribed in God’s Word.’ End quote.

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, which is like a total mouthful, but on the surface that sounds really good. Like I get that. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Yeah, y’know, as a pastor, as a Christian, as a man who takes the Word serious, I’m like ‘okay, I can roll with ya.’ 

JESSE EUBANKS: So of course, it was expected that Christians would sign and affirm this document. And so far, over 10,000 have signed it. However, there was a breakdown in the rank and file when many prominent Christian leaders refused to sign. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: In short order, the internet blew up with other statements pushing against the document, saying it was incompatible with Christian theology. Twitter, Facebook, blogs, sermons, keynote conference speakers — they were kinda all arguing back and forth. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Essentially a theological civil war had begun, with more than 10,000 Christians on one side and a small group of influential leaders on the other. All over one document. And what was this document they were arguing about? It was called The Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel.  

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JESSE EUBANKS: You’re listening to the Love Thy Neighborhood podcast. I’m Jesse Eubanks.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: And I’m Jamaal Williams. Each episode we hear stories of social justice and Christian community.

JESSE EUBANKS: Today’s episode is where the gospel meets social justice. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Which is an important topic for LTN, right? It’s part of what we do and who we are. Social justice internships and Christian community. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, and I mean this story has impacted us. And so today we’re going to look at the story of this statement on social justice. Why was it written? Why did some leaders choose not to support it? And what should we as Christians do about social justice? Welcome to our corner of the urban universe.

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AUDIO CLIP: There is a very loud cry being raised that we’re not even Christians who have the gospel if we don’t include the social gospel, which means earthly temporal equity for everyone. 

JESSE EUBANKS: What you just heard was a sermon by John MacArthur. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Yeah, MacArthur is the President of the Master’s Seminary in California. He’s a bestselling author. He also has a whole host of younger Christians, pastors of all races and ethnicities that respect him because he made expository preaching really popular in the ‘70s. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, MacArthur was also one of the initial signers of the Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel. In fact, the statement came out along with a series of sermons and blog posts MacArthur wrote. Here’s another clip from his sermon.

AUDIO CLIP: And I would add as well wherever anybody has been treated unjustly, they ought to be treated justly. Where anybody has been treated cruelly, they ought to be treated kindly.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: And what he’s saying there is not a controversial statement. That’s the basics of living out your Christianity — it’s love your neighbor as yourself. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Right. I mean no Christian is gonna disagree with that. So why then was there so much controversy over The Statement on Social Justice? Well I think first we need to turn to a well-known story.

In the Gospel of Luke chapter 10, Jesus tells the story of the Good Samaritan. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: And you probably already know the setup. An expert in God’s law asks Jesus how to live forever, the answer is to love God and your neighbor, and then the man asks — ‘Who is my neighbor?’

JESSE EUBANKS: And in verse 30, Jesus replies with a story — ‘A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Now the priest and the Levite probably believe they are keeping God’s law. It was unlawful for them to touch a dead body without then having to go through purification. It’s not shocking for these men to pass by on the other side. 

JESSE EUBANKS: But what’s shocking is what Jesus says happens next — ‘But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Then Jesus asks — ‘Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?’ The expert in the law replied, ‘The one who had mercy on him.’

JESSE EUBANKS: And in this story I think Jesus gives us a very clear and very simple way for us to navigate this topic of social justice, which easily becomes an overwhelmingly complex conversation. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Absolutely bro. In essence, giving clarity was exactly what the drafters of the Statement on Social Justice wanted to do.

TOM ASCOL: The things that are going on publicly in our culture that are needing theological perspectives and voices.

JESSE EUBANKS: So this is Tom Ascol. He’s a senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, and he’s the executive director of Founders Ministries. He was also one of the initial people who helped craft the Statement on Social Justice.

TOM ASCOL: Like racial issues, men and women issues, sexuality issues. ‘So why don’t we get together in Dallas and let’s talk?’ And I think there was 13 or 14 guys that met for a day. But we just got to get together and say ‘What do you see? What are your concerns?’ And we found out that we all shared very common concerns about some of the things that were happening. 

JESSE EUBANKS: So when Tom says they were concerned about some things, he actually cited three things in particular. The first was the Revoice Conference, a conference which was about affirming LGBT Christians. And the concern was that the conference identifies these Christians not just by their faith, but by their sexual orientation. For example, ‘gay Christian.’ The second concern was the MLK50 Conference, which was held to mark the 50th anniversary of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s death. And the concern there was that this conference praised a man who, though he accomplished many amazing things that transformed our society, he also had serious theological and moral compromises. The third thing was a statement made by a professor at King’s College in Manhattan, who tweeted this — ‘From a black church perspective, evangelicals have never had the gospel.’ And when asked to clarify, he explained that he believes that white evangelicalism has never actually grasped the gospel of salvation. These three things came together and made these men very concerned about the future of where the church was heading. 

TOM ASCOL: Well we wanted to do something. We really didn’t know what to do. All of us had preached or taught in our various circles of influence, tried to communicate things that we were concerned about and what we understand the Bible to teach about these issues. But there wasn’t much of a platform beyond just our own local deals.

JESSE EUBANKS: And they decided that the best thing to do would be to write up a statement that would succinctly express their theological affirmations as well as their concerns.

TOM ASCOL: And I was given the task of doing the primary draft work on this, so I did that work and I bounced it off some others as well, some friends. But then we set this before all of the men who were in that meeting and, y’know, we went back and forth on it and tried to come up with something that’s a consensus.

JESSE EUBANKS: So the statement was released to a small audience in August and was officially published in September.

TOM ASCOL: So that was the genesis of the statement. We wanted to put it out in hopes that it would provoke some good conversation and at least arrest the attention of many evangelicals.

JESSE EUBANKS: And as they hoped, folks started signing it. Before its official release, it already had more than 75 signatures. But not everyone was on board. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: When the statement was released, some notable black and brown Christians spoke up talking about what hurt and what wasn’t accurate. Folks like Jemar Tisby…

AUDIO CLIP: It’s these initial writers and signatories asserting the power to define theological orthodoxy… I don’t know that they have struck a nerve as much as they have sort of aggravated a consternation that was already there…

JESSE EUBANKS: And they were all saying one thing — we cannot in good conscience agree with this statement. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: I think everybody expected that, right? But what people didn’t expect was notable white Christian leaders to speak up. One of the people who disagreed with the statement was Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Al Mohler.

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah okay, so Southern Seminary has chapel on a regular basis and this one particular week Mohler decides that he’s gonna host a Q&A, something a little bit different for the campus. And so students start sending in all of these different questions that they want their seminary president to answer. And one of the topics that just kept coming up was the Statement on Social Justice. And the students wanted to know — ‘Mohler, why do you not support this document?’

AL MOHLER: It’s no secret to say I’m a very conservative thinker when it comes to the questions of politics and cultural engagement.

JESSE EUBANKS: And so at first, like his disagreement with the statement doesn’t seem to make sense. The theology in the statement is actually very conservative, which is, y’know, what it would affirm. So it would make sense for Mohler’s convictions to line up with the statement. And in some areas they do. And yet Mohler didn’t sign it. And he tells the students there are two reasons why I can’t sign this document. And here’s the first one.

AL MOHLER: The statement itself uses language like ‘entitled’ victims, people should not be told that they are ‘entitled’ victims of social structures. And certainly we have an entire entitlement identity politics victim culture and industry out there. The reality is there are also real victims who really are victims.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: The section of the statement which Mohler is referring to is article 12 on race and ethnicity, which says ‘We reject any teaching that encourages racial groups to view themselves as privileged oppressors or entitled victims of oppression. While we are to weep with those who weep, we deny that a person’s feelings of offense or oppression necessarily prove that someone else is guilty of sinful behaviors, oppression, or prejudice.’

JESSE EUBANKS: And for Mohler, he thinks using language like ‘entitled victims’ has implications far beyond ethnicity. Because he then brings up something that doesn’t have anything to do with ethnicity but it has rocked a ton of church communities lately — child sexual abuse. 

AL MOHLER: I mean there are real victims. There is no truth in saying they’re not real victims, and there were all kinds of structures of lies and oppression and cover up that uh not only denied their injury — and it’s hard to come up with an adequate word for that — but also perpetuated the protection of the abusers so that even other children, more children could be abused. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Like Mohler knows Christians aren’t capable of stopping all sin and all oppression. This world isn’t going to be made right this side of heaven. But what Mohler is saying is that it doesn’t mean we should be like the priest and the Levite and pass by on the other side of the road when we see someone who is a real victim of real oppression. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: And here’s the reality. Dr. Mohler is absolutely right. We don’t speak this way about victims of sexual abuse. I don’t think people are going to call them entitled victims. We don’t speak this way about people who are victims of human trafficking. For many of us, we’re not really upset about the idea of God’s justice being carried out in the broader culture in this way. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Which actually brings us to the second reason that Mohler wouldn’t sign. Because for some of us, the rub has nothing to do with social justice as a whole, but rather one very particular aspect.

RUSSELL MOORE: We’re almost always talking about race.

JESSE EUBANKS: We’ll be right back. 

COMMERCIAL

JESSE EUBANKS: You’re listening to the Love Thy Neighborhood podcast. I’m Jesse Eubanks.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: And I’m Jamaal Williams. Today’s episode is where the gospel meets social justice.

JESSE EUBANKS: More than 10,000 Christians have signed a document called The Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel. But there’s a handful of prominent leaders who say they won’t sign it. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: We’ve heard from one of these leaders, Al Mohler of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, and another one of these leaders is Dr. Russell Moore.

RUSSELL MOORE: In almost every case, we’re not really even talking about quote unquote social justice. We’re not even talking about social engagement broadly. We’re almost always talking about race.

JESSE EUBANKS: Okay so Russell Moore is the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. And these clips are actually from another podcast called The Holy Post. And he believes the majority of pushback on social justice isn’t even about social justice. He believes it’s actually a pushback on race and how we talk about race. And to make his point, Moore cites a pretty compelling example of how he knows Christians, including Christians who say they dislike social justice, actually do care very deeply about social justice.

RUSSELL MOORE: Some of the very people who would say this are the people who have talked about, and rightly so, abortion, the systemic public problem of abortion, not abortion simply as a personal issue. We don’t simply say ‘Well, Jesus can forgive people for abortion. Therefore, let’s not worry about whether or not the law recognizes an unborn child as a person.’ They don’t do that.

JESSE EUBANKS: So we’re okay with social justice in regards to the justice of saving unborn lives, but that is not always the case when it comes to justice around issues of race. Y’know, Jamaal, why do you think that that is? Why are we as Christians having such a hard time talking about this issue of race?

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Because it forces them to listen to people who have had experiences who probably have a different perspective on history than they have. When I think about just growing up, what I learned and read in school, it was a very white perspective. And when you grow up all your life with a white perspective, a white history, and suddenly you’re confronted with a different perspective that is, uh, seems to be out of the blue and people have pain when they’re talking about it and they want you to acknowledge it, that’s just a deep level of work that has to happen and most people aren’t willing to do that work.

JESSE EUBANKS: But there’s like this disconnect between the way that Christians are pro-social justice on issues of abortion but they’re silent, vague, or fractured when it comes around to issues of race. And in fact, according to Moore, this disconnect is not a new one.

RUSSELL MOORE: And what’s really disheartening is the way that the church repeats the same problems over and over and over again with the exact same talking points. So if you were in a Southern Baptist or Southern Presbyterian context in 1845 and the question of slavery comes up, the response is going to be ‘You’re distracting us from the gospel. We need to be the people who are sharing the gospel and evangelizing the world and not to get involved in these social issues like slavery.’

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Here’s part of what the section statement on racism says — ‘We emphatically deny that lectures on social issues or activism aimed at reshaping the wider culture are as vital to the life and health of the church as the preaching of the gospel and the exposition of Scripture. Historically such things tend to become distractions that inevitably lead to departures from the gospel.’ End quote.

JESSE EUBANKS: So what he’s saying is that the argument that social justice is quote ‘a distraction from the gospel,’ it may actually be just a smokescreen to mask the fact that there are issues that we just don’t want to personally be involved with or responsible for. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Exactly. And he believes the pushback on social justice — that it’s un-Christian, it’s liberal, it’s marxist, it’s a distraction — is a way to change the topic away from our personal sin of racism.

JESSE EUBANKS: So then there’s this question, right? If that’s true, then does that mean that everyone who signed the document is secretly a racist? 

KYLE BOWERS: I am not the type of person that denies the history of racism in this country.

JESSE EUBANKS: So this is Kyle Bowers. And Kyle’s actually not his real name. He actually asked to remain anonymous just due to his field of work. He lives right here in Louisville, and he’s one of the many folks who actually did sign the statement.

KYLE BOWERS: Y’know, through a few blog posts and I think a podcast, I heard that it had been released. And then went about reading it. Y’know, found myself in agreement with most of it. Again I wanna be clear that I don’t agree with every word, but I also agree with enough of it that I was comfortable signing it. 

JESSE EUBANKS: And for Kyle, one of his main concerns is the way the church has adopted language that is not in the Bible.

KYLE BOWERS: Like microaggressions for instance. Like I’ve actually heard Christians use the word microaggression. And I’m like how about like Jesus taught about sins of the heart and how if you lust for someone that’s the same as adultery or if you have hate in your heart for someone that’s the same as murder? So it’s like Jesus gave us way better language to use. Like ‘sins of the heart’ or, y’know, just ‘sin.’ Like just ‘sin.’ That’s a good enough word. We don’t need — if we get too political with using some of the language that is being used on every media outlet right now throughout all of culture — y’know, if we’re wanting to preach again word for word, verse for verse, out of the Bible, Jesus plus nothing equals everything — if we’re doing that, I don’t know why we even need to borrow language from secular culture. 

JESSE EUBANKS: And when it comes to the topic of race in particular, there’s one thing that he simply cannot endorse.

KYLE BOWERS: I don’t think that the sins of history of any particular race or group should be applied to individuals that live today. You as a Christian, you’re alone with God. Your individual walk with Christ is your individual walk with Christ. Secular critical race theory, it makes everything a collectivized discussion. So it takes away from individuals. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Man, I really appreciate Kyle’s perspective. And honestly, Kyle is trying to think through this biblically, right? Uphold biblical language, pointing essentially to this idea that yeah, Moses did say that a child shall not bear the penalty of a father’s sin. And yet at the same time, we have to wrestle with other texts like Nehemiah chapter one, where Nehemiah prays and asks God to forgive him and the nation of Israel as well as their fathers for their sins. And sometimes I wonder, while I may differ and say I think that repentance, corporate repentance, is important and necessary, what most people are after, at least what I want to see as an African-American, is lamenting — true brokenness over what has happened in the past and a true effort as well as curiosity on how we can make it together.

JESSE EUBANKS: So let’s go back to Al Mohler at the seminary Q&A. Because I think this is what he was trying to get at. Remember how I said that there were two reasons Mohler wouldn’t sign? Well, he made it clear that race was the second issue.

AL MOHLER: I can’t associate with any assertion that we do not have a massive problem in the society and in the church with claims of racial superiority and with the fact that remnants and ongoing manifestations of those claims of white racial superiority continue.

JESSE EUBANKS: And here’s the thing. As he said this, like you could almost sense like the audible sigh in the room, like ‘Oh great. Here we go. Al’s playing the race card.’ And so, like as if to shake everyone in the room to their senses, he goes on to remind everyone what campus they are on.

AL MOHLER: I’m the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the president of a seminary established by slaveholders as a part of a convention established to allow slaveholders to continue to send missionaries and be slaveholders.

JESSE EUBANKS: And Mohler believes our history leaves lasting impressions. And to make that clear, he went on to tell the story of a man named Joseph Emerson Brown — an important name for the seminary. 

AL MOHLER: Joseph Emerson Brown saved this seminary in the 1870’s from its absolute financial demise. Joseph Emerson Brown was the United States Senator from Georgia, and he was the Confederate Governor of Georgia.

JESSE EUBANKS: So in his honor the seminary has since named a title on their board after him — the Joseph Emerson Brown Chair of Christian Theology. And President Al Mohler — he’s the one who currently holds this title. And here’s the thing. Like as I listen to this Q&A, when he starts talking about this, you can like hear the change in his voice. Like he’s been really passionate and declarative up to this point, but then he gets here and you can almost just hear the shame.

AL MOHLER: Joseph Emerson Brown once, and probably far more than once, notably argued that the one thing every white man knows no matter how low his state is that he is the better of every black man. This is the history I have to walk around with. I am the Joseph Emerson Brown Professor of Christian Theology. Put that on your title.

JESSE EUBANKS: And so here’s the reality, like Al Mohler was not the man who made that terrible statement that every white man knows that he’s better than every black man. But the truth is that Al Mohler now has a title that exalts that man. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Yes he does, and people stand firmly on both sides of that. I’ve heard people say ‘Hey, Southern should change the name as an act of repentance.’ And I’ve heard people say that Southern shouldn’t. What I appreciate from Mohler is you can hear in his voice as he’s saying it and you can experience him wrestling with that reality.

AL MOHLER: I don’t believe I could possibly, honestly give assent to a statement that could be read and has been interpreted by some as denying this reality and the continuing urgency of this reality.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: When I think about this issue as Christians, it’s really not to demonize people who have signed the statement or who agree with the statement. My hope is that I can talk to people who sign this statement without a fear that drives me to think that ‘Man, this person hates me and my black skin because they signed this statement.’ And I would hope that someone who signed the statement can listen to this episode as well as be able to talk to me without the reverse fear of saying, ‘You know what, he’s a marxist’ or ‘He’s holding to a worldly political standpoint.’

JESSE EUBANKS: And I think that, y’know, for many of us, y’know, speaking as a white man, like guys like me find ourselves going ‘Okay well, what does that mean? What does it mean to live in the wake of the decisions that my ancestors made, and what is my responsibility now in this moment living in this year in light of all of these things? I think that starts with reading books from authors that are different than the ones we usually read, going maybe even to places in town that we don’t normally go to, means worshipping in communities that are different communities that we typically don’t worship in, and beginning to do the relational work of building friendships that are outside of our typical circles. Because the bottom line is like that this is a relational problem and the only way we’re going to solve it is relationally.

And so, where has all this gotten us? 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Well, not surprisingly, we’ve been here before. This is not a new debate for our country.

SKYE JETHANI: Oh my goodness, this has been raging for over a hundred years.

JESSE EUBANKS: So this is Skye Jethani. Skye was the the former Managing Editor for Christianity Today’s leadership journal. Of course Christianity Today was founded by Billy Graham. Skye’s an author, a speaker, and also an incredible scholar. And he says this exact same debate was happening in America at the turn of the 20th century.

So towards the beginning of the 20th century, all these modern ideas and theories were coming out of Europe, things like psychology and evolution and anti-supernaturalism.

SKYE JETHANI: And there were some Christians in the United States who said ‘Hey, y’know, we’ve gotta kind of accept all these new ideas, which means rethinking our understanding of the faith,’ and they abandoned a lot of orthodox Christianity. They abandoned the resurrection and the virgin birth and the authority of Scripture, and what they were left with were the social teachings of Jesus. And in reaction to that came the fundamentalists who said ‘No way. We need to hang onto the fundamentals of the Bible, of orthodox Christianity and the salvation of souls and the belief in miracles and the resurrection.

JESSE EUBANKS: And so you had one group saying it’s all about upholding modern social issues and another group saying it’s all about upholding the authority of Scripture and what the Bible says. But the latter group, the fundamentalists, didn’t just say ‘You’ve taken social action too far.’ They just got rid of it altogether.

SKYE JETHANI: But in response, they decided any of this social dimension of the gospel — that’s a sign that you’re on a slippery slope away from orthodoxy. And they created this false dichotomy, and that is still with us today where people who feel like if you say anything about racism or poverty or social injustice — ‘Oh, you’re just giving up on the gospel. You’re gonna give up on the resurrection and the virgin birth next.’ And so we’ve created this bogey man that says if you go down that road at all, even when it’s biblically justifiable, you’re going to abandon the core teachings of the faith.

JESSE EUBANKS: And Skye believes part of this false dichotomy we’ve created is due to our English translations of the Bible. 

SKYE JETHANI: One of the problems we have is translation. The word ‘justice’ in the Old Testament and New Testament is actually the exact same root word as ‘righteousness.’ And we use the word ‘righteous’ all the time when speaking about our relationship with God or our morality, but it’s the exact same word that’s translated as ‘justice’ in the Old and New Testaments.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: In Matthew 23:23, we see Jesus talking to the Pharisees and the religious leaders of the day and he mentions to them, ‘Hey, you pay a tenth of a mint, a dill, a cumin, and yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy, and faithfulness.’

JESSE EUBANKS: And in fact, justice, according to Skye…

SKYE JETHANI: It’s one of the most frequent issues brought up throughout the Bible.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: You think about the Beatitudes — ‘Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.’ That literal translation is ‘after justice.’ You think about 1 Corinthians 15, when Paul talks about the matters of first importance is the gospel. I’m like ‘Is that all we’re supposed to preach about if for the first 14 chapters he dealt with other subjects in the Christian life?’ No, the gospel is the light that shines on all these other areas, right? Part of the gospel is not just the gospel of the cross. The gospel of the cross is incredible, it’s what saves us, it’s what keeps us, it’s what we don’t stray from. But the gospel is also a gospel of grace, as well as a gospel of God’s kingdom, that the kingdom of God is near.

JESSE EUBANKS: So if social justice is something God brings up time and time again, why are we as Christians fearful of it? And Skye says that sometimes the answer, sadly, is politics.

SKYE JETHANI: There are certain Christians who will advocate for pro-life issues, pro-family issues, religious liberty, freedom of speech, they object when Christians are silenced or marginalized on secular campuses. All of those are social justice issues, but when it’s about racism or poverty or immigration or something that’s perceived to be on the political left, that’s social justice, that’s a diversion from the gospel, that’s unnecessary for us to be involved in. 

JESSE EUBANKS: And so when we talk about social justice, we need to ask ourselves — Are we talking about social justice from a biblical perspective, loving our neighbor as ourself because that is what God has done for us and what he commands? Or are we simply referring to it through the lens of man-made political parties and ideologies? Which is exactly the distinction that seminary president Al Mohler wants to make clear.

AL MOHLER: So do I believe in social justice in a marxist version? No, and I’ll fight that with every fiber of my being. Do I believe in social justice as meaning where God’s people are, there must be an increasing realization of the justice of God in the society of which they are a part? The answer is yes. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: What President Mohler just did was simply genius. Um, he’s doing what I think all Christians need to do. We need to be patient in our beliefs and steadfast in our beliefs while appropriately nuancing. 

JESSE EUBANKS: So what it all boils down to at the end of the day is this — regardless of our politics, regardless of our feelings about the term ‘social justice,’ what are we as Christians called to? And for that answer, I wanna share some thoughts with you from one more person. Stay with us. 

COMMERCIAL

JESSE EUBANKS: Welcome back to the Love Thy Neighborhood podcast. I’m Jesse Eubanks.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: And I’m Jamaal Williams. Today’s story is where the gospel meets social justice. We’ve talked about race, fundamentalism, and politics. Now what?

JESSE EUBANKS: Where do we go from here? Should we as Christians reject any efforts to correct societal injustice? Or should we all be taking up our signs and protesting every injustice we see? What is the way forward? 

BOB RUSSELL: Be full of grace and truth when dealing with social justice issues.

JESSE EUBANKS: This is Bob Russell. Bob is the retired senior pastor of Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky. I actually spent most of my childhood under his preaching. And recently Bob was speaking to a small congregation that was known for being very proactive in their community. 

BOB RUSSELL: Y’know, 50 years ago, churches pretty much ignored racism and poverty and compassion for the disenfranchised, but in recent years the evangelical churches are doing a much better job and we’re providing food for the hungry, endorsing racial reconciliation programs, and rebuilding homes in the inner city. And we should do that because Jesus said ‘feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and welcome the stranger.’ 

JESSE EUBANKS: But then, like a loving dad, he offered them a warning. And I think Bob’s warning isn’t just for this church. I think it’s for us too. 

BOB RUSSELL: But here’s my concern. We emphasize grace to the point that we say little about truth. Churches are shouting grace and whispering repentance, and we get out of balance. Folks, social justice is not the gospel. Social justice is the byproduct of the gospel.

JESSE EUBANKS: And in wanting to make sure that everyone understood his point, he did what any good preacher does. He gave specific examples from Scripture. 

BOB RUSSELL: Remember in John 6, Jesus fed 5,000 people with five loaves and two fish. He was concerned about hungry people, but you know what happened the next day? The next day the crowds swelled, and the people came — they wanted free breakfast. But Jesus refused to feed them again, and he said ‘I’m not a bread Messiah. The bread that I feed you comes down from heaven. I am the bread of life. Whoever believes in me will never go hungry. Who comes to me will never be thirsty.’ And verse 66 of John 6 says from that day forth, many people walked back, left him, and walked no more with him. They wanted the bread, but not the message of eternal life. And it is so easy for a church to slip into being full of grace and neglect truth and nobody gets saved.

JESSE EUBANKS: The Bible says that we love others because God first loved us. Our motivation for selfless, sacrificial love is because of Christ. And we should be quick to make that clear to others when we help people. ‘I’m doing this for you because of what God did for me.’ We need to actually say out loud the truth that we know in our hearts. It isn’t enough to simply be kind without ever sharing our motivation. And so Bob gives one very clear piece of advice on social justice.

BOB RUSSELL: When it comes to social justice, stay balanced. Truth and grace. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Yeah Jesse, we build bridges to send things across them. And so churches, when we do social good, it should be ultimately to send the truth across them, to send them to the gospel. So we need that balance. We don’t just do good for good’s sake. Jesus said, ‘Let your light so shine that men may see your good works and glorify your God who is in heaven.’

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, I’ve heard it said that the Christian life is like an airplane with two wings. One wing is social action, while the other is biblical truth. And for the airplane to fly correctly, it must stay balanced between word and deed. Be people of both grace and truth. So what does it look like to be people of grace and truth? So actually I wanna leave this whole world of debate behind because I think that at the end of the day the answer that we’re looking for can actually be found in this simple story. So this is actually a story from season one of our podcast. But it’s the story of a guy named Caleb.

One year a guy named Caleb came to serve with us. Now here’s what you need to know about Caleb. He was 18 years old, fresh out of high school, and he came to serve with us for an entire year. Now at that time, our guys in the program that were serving with us, they lived in an apartment inside of a homeless shelter, which is like a crazy conversation to have with mom and dad, right? Now around the same time that Caleb came to serve with us, this guy named Joey moved in. Now Joey was in his early 60’s. He was an ex-convict. He had been in prison for 10 years for armed robbery. And Joey was just like a bad dude. You don’t mess with him, like he’s always irritated, he did not like all of our Jesus talk, he was frustrated by us. So one of the things that we encouraged our interns to do is — you know, you can’t be friends with everybody. There’s like a limit to your relational energy, so just pick like one person that you’re really going to invest in. And so Caleb comes to me, and he goes ‘Hey, I’ve got my one person. I’m gonna invest in Joey.’ And I’m like ‘Dude, you make the worst decisions.’ And Joey’s just like not interested. Joey avoids him, like Caleb sits down next to him at a meal and Joey’s like would get up and leave. Caleb would go outside to sit next to Joey while he had a cigarette and Joey would just go like ‘Oh, I’ve been meaning to quit’ and he would just get up and leave. So this goes on for a while, but then like this thing happened, like this miraculous thing, like the theologians call a football season. So one day I’m in my office, this call comes in over the radio, and they’re like ‘There’s a fight breaking out in the day shelter. Everybody downstairs.’ So we all like run downstairs and we can hear this yelling and as we get closer we suddenly realize it’s Joey and Caleb and they’re screaming at each other. And it turns out that these two guys were yelling at each other because they were actually just talking trash about each other’s football teams. They’ve got like a smirk on their face and like they’re laughing and they’re like enjoying it and slowly like these two guys became friends. And they were like the oddest couple — like this young 18-year-old kid, this like 60-year-old convict — and they were just like always together and they’re spending more and more time together. Joey comes into my office one day and he like plops down in the chair and he goes ‘I just don’t get it. I don’t get why this kid is living in a homeless shelter hanging out with a bunch of drunks and convicts and addicts when he can be off at school having the time of his life. He could be chasing girls, he could be chasing money, he could be going after a great job. It doesn’t make any sense. The only way it makes sense is if this Jesus he keeps telling me about is real. And if this Jesus is real, then I want this Jesus too.’ And so like that day man, we saw Joey give his life to the Lord. And the thing is this, is like every now and then the Lord gives you that rare person who truly does change overnight, and Joey was that person for us. So I actually called Caleb to ask him about this.

PHONE RINGING

JESSE EUBANKS: Caleb!

CALEB: Jesse!

JESSE EUBANKS: What’s up bro?

CALEB: Hey man.

JESSE EUBANKS: And so I asked Caleb like ‘Did you see as much transformation as I saw?’

CALEB: After he came to Christ and like really turned his life over to Jesus, he seems far more loving and like patient in a way or just more willing to engage in conversation with people in a way that like showed that he loves them and not just, I don’t know, pick a fight or argue. Yeah, it was like night and day.

JESSE EUBANKS: And like it was just astounding to see so much change in Joey’s character. I also wanted to ask Caleb like ‘Why did Joey mean so much to you?’

CALEB: Y’know, like why is your best friend valuable to you? And it’s like because they are, like because they’re there. Y’know like, I know it’s such a cliche to say like the more you put in, like the more you get out of it. And like that’s what happened in my relationship with Joey. Like I just kept showing up and trying to get to know him and we got to talk about things that really matter and we got to talk about our spiritual lives and believing in Jesus and we bonded over sports and whatever, but like we were just there for each other. Joey, Joey and I were like really present in each other’s lives. He got to be there to see me go off to college and see me start at school and get involved with things on campus. I remember talking to him on the phone and telling him I got invited to like kind of become the student leader with this, and he just like lost it. Like he was so excited, and he was like ‘Oh man. They got a good one.’ Like he was just so proud. 

JESSE EUBANKS: So that phone call was actually the last significant conversation that Joey and Caleb ever had. You know, Joey had just done a lot of drugs and drank a lot of alcohol through his life, and eventually, you know, his body just shut down and passed away. Y’know, but before he died, I went and spent time with him in the hospital and he would just like take the last of his strength to, y’know, raise his finger in the sky and look me in the eye and just be like ‘The Lord has been so good to me.’ And I’m amazed at that because that all happened because of this 18-year-old kid who loved Joey in both word and deed. Like Caleb didn’t just care for Joey’s physical needs as a homeless convict — he talked with him about Scripture, about Jesus, about the truth of the gospel. But speaking truth wasn’t all that Caleb did either. I mean he also lived in a homeless shelter. He spent the majority of his time with guys like Joey. He cared about issues of addiction. He cared about issues of homelessness. I mean he loved Joey the way that he would want someone to love him if he were in Joey’s situation. 

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: No, that’s a great story, just on the power of love and the power of being present. And uh, I just wonder even for us as Christians, even people who have signed the statement and who have not signed the statement, what it would look like just to, to love each other in that way. 

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah because sometimes we’re just gonna disagree. I mean that’s just the way that family works. I mean because the reality is this. We, as the church, are a big dysfunctional family. But like we’re still family, and we all need to stay at the table with each other and keep working through these things. And the other thing is this, like all this talk about social justice and what it means and what it doesn’t mean — I mean is this something that we as Christians should be putting this much energy toward? Well, Skye Jethani actually thinks yes.

SKYE JETHANI: Is it important to talk about social justice? It’s like saying ‘Is it important to be talking about loving our neighbor?’ Yeah, it’s essential because in Scripture our relationship with God is never separated from our relationship with the people around us. ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.’

JESSE EUBANKS: And so I get it. Like there are some places and contexts and people are like — you hear the word ‘social justice’ and it’s just like a bomb goes off in the relationship, y’know, and it breaks down the conversation. And Skye gets this too.

SKYE JETHANI: I really don’t care if someone uses the term ‘social justice’ or not. ‘A rose by any other name,’ right? As Shakespeare said. If people care about their neighbor, if they love their neighbor, if they believe that being a follower of Jesus Christ and seeking his mission in the world includes transformation of that which is wrong and evil and unjust, I don’t care what you call it. Call it whatever you like. That’s what we’re called to.

JESSE EUBANKS: Yeah, and you know who else doesn’t care? Our neighbors. The people in our city that need our love and our presence. Like no one at the homeless shelters or in the strip clubs or in foster care or nursing homes, none of them care about this debate. It does not matter to them. What matters to them are two simple things — ‘Are you going to show up?  And when you do, will you love me with your actions and your words the way that you say Jesus loves me?’

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: In the story of the Good Samaritan, Jesus concludes by asking the expert of the law — ‘Which of these proved himself to be a true neighbor?’ The expert answered, ‘The one who showed mercy.’ And Jesus told him, ‘Go, and do likewise.’

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JESSE EUBANKS: To hear the full story of Caleb and Joey and their relationship, go back to episode number three of this podcast — Where the Gospel Meets Homelessness. If you’d like more resources on this topic or to hear past episodes of this podcast, visit our website at lovethyneighborhood.org/podcast. 

Hey, one more thing. We found our interviews with Tom Ascol and Skye Jethani just to be totally fascinating, and we’ve decided we wanna let you guys hear those interviews in their entirety. So if you would like to hear those interviews, simply head over to our website at lovethyneighborhood.org/LTNpodcast.

So this is the final episode of season two. Thank you so much for listening and supporting us. We are so excited about what is coming in season three. We have some stuff up our sleeve that we have never tried before, some brand new partnerships and topics that we are very excited to share with you, and we will be back next year with more stories.

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JESSE EUBANKS: Special thanks to our interviewees for this episode — Tom Ascol, Kyle Bowers, Skye Jethani, and Caleb Butler. Make sure to check out Skye Jethani’s podcast, The Holy Post. They’re exploring what life is like for Christians in a post-Christian America. Skye is one of our very favorite podcasters. Again, it’s called The Holy Post. Thanks also to Al Mohler, Russell Moore, and Bob Russell. To hear the full audio from which their clips were taken, head over to the resource section on our website at lovethyneighborhood.org/podcast.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Our senior producer and host is Jesse Eubanks.

JESSE EUBANKS: Our co-host today is Jamaal Williams.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: And our producer, technical director editor, and secret transformer is Rachel Szabo.

JESSE EUBANKS: Music for today’s episode comes from Lee Rosevere, Podington Bear, Kevin McCloud, and Blue Dot Sessions. Theme music and commercial music by Murphy DX.

JAMAAL WILLIAMS: Apply for your social justice internship supported by Christian community by visiting lovethyneighborhood.org. Serve for a summer or a year. Grow in your faith and life skills.

JESSE EUBANKS: Which of these was a neighbor to the man in need? The one who showed mercy. Jesus tells us, ‘Go, and do likewise.’